first bar shoot

[merman]

a friend of mine was opening for a musician named Jayk at Franks in Guelph, i decided to bring my camera and give it a try.
I had a lot of problems getting the hang of it, alot of the pictures came out blurry or under exposed. I did manage to get some good ones tho!
i pretty much left my camera on program, and varied iso's all over the place. I also used the exposure lock anytime i got a a good exposure from the crappy bar lights.
the first (BW) i locked the exposure when i got 1/80th @ f5 with a 28-80mm lense and no flash
the second please critique the hell out of it! i Really like the effect i got, and i have learned how to use the rear curtain to give motion and such to a picture. So let me know what i can do to improve it because i think it could be a very interesting shot! camera still on program, rear curtain flash f3.5 and i dont know what the shutter was, it just said LO

btw the artist in both shots is Jayk

p.s when i comes to black and white i am a whore for grain

[AcadieLibre]

Well first of all, sorry they are at best an attempt. Second one has no real redeeming qualities, lights and colour are all off, blurry. I am only being harsh because I know you can do better. Club shooting is hard.

Now for the first photo. Bad angle, way too black and under exposed. The singers top half is just not any good, far too dark. Your centre of interest is the musician and he appears he is part of the background.

So you know F/4 in a club is too small. The Largest aperture should be 2.8 and leave it on that. I would love to tell you how I do it, but I shoot different than every concert photography I know or know. I would tell you how, but I go on instinct and instinct period. Remember in a club stage lights are you best friend, meter readings have no value at all, nor does the histogram. One other thing if you did use a flash almost every venue I
would be asked to leave just for using a flash. It is one thing for the fans, but since you have fare closer a flash is just so taboo. I will post a sample, no flash ever, I use and calculate several formulas because every club is different and they use lighting in various way.

I like the attempt and I hope I am not be crass but I think you can do better and you need to learn to push your camera and when creativity plays a role but most experience.

[AntZ]

I like the look of shot 1. B & W has definitely worked as has the grain. :highfive: B & W will also make soft focus less noticeable. A tip I picked up from a photographer friend. The bright spot on the gear behind the singer takes away from the focus on the singer. I do like the gear in the shot, but it should not take away from the main focus. You could try some localised brightness adjustments in that area. I think this shot would also work in portrait with just the singer in the shot.

The second shot is pretty much a blurred snap shot. The white balance is off, is fairly soft and the background is quite busy.. I like the sense of motion, but second synch flash could really have helped. Bearing in mind that sometimes flash is not acceptable or annoying to the artist and the audience.

You should really be setting using aperture mode or manual on the largest apeture your lens can handle.
This low light stuff is tough, but the challenge is part of the fun.:D

Just noticed AL beat me to it;)

[Greg_Nuspel]

I have had some fun shooting this type of thing but I am also learning so I can only give you a few pointers I have picked up. You definitely have to get into using manual mode to get control of your shots. If flash is allowed you'll have to learn how to balance stage lighting with flash if you want any interesting effects. The best thing I can say is shoot lots and then look at your photos and study what settings worked. Most of the time you have to throw the rule book out and play, but that is the fun of it.

I find guitar players are hard to get good blur/stop action photos they either move too much or too little:wall-an:
Watch out for microphones they invade the face or grow out of heads. :yuck:
We all have our own ideas on what is best and I like to crop in close and look for the emotion, it just takes practice and expect a lot of shots that are fit for the pit. Just don't stop trying.

[AcadieLibre]

Sorry Sample Photos are now gone.

[merman]

Thank you everyone for the replies! and AL your not being harsh at all, i am actually a little flattered that you say i can do better!

tips are a big help! i obviously need some faster glass, my lense only shoots 3.5!
as for the flash, (i need to learn to use it better lol) he didnt mind, I asked before hand if it would be a bother, and i would also try to refrain from using a flash if i was directly infront, or if he was looking at me.
and i will definetly ignore my cameras meter next time, and see what io come up with
i have a question tho, in a dark club, what iso's are you shooting (AL)? and are the shutter speeds still low?

[AcadieLibre]

MY ISO is usually 800 to 3200. MY 50D can go to 12800 and never gone there yet. Fast glass is the most important thing you can invest in. 6 of my 8 lenses are 2.8 or faster including my primes. I want to lowest ISO I can use. Shutter speeds I try to keep 1/100 as my slowest, but for a drummer lets say you need at least 1/125 shutter speed. Now these are just approximations and I have taken photos shutter speed 1/40 and IS0 6400 and a prime f/1.4, anything under 1/60 shutter speed you better have nerves of steel or you will end up with movement in the photo. Each club , stadium and band require adjustments and different approaches. If your fastest is 3.5 go high ISO as you camera can go.

This artist may not have minded the Flash but many people do, and even if they don't mind the audience experience is not the same with some guy taking photos and with his flash, many people will dislike you over it. I go out of my way not to interfere with the band or the enjoyment of the audience, when you do bands you need to try and be as invisible as possible to everyone there. One last word on Flashes, I have never used a flash at a concert or club ever, Promoters like Live Nation it is a no go, you use flash you get the boot, so learn not to use one.

When you get no meter reading you need to use the stage light as your light source and where you shoot from is very important. It is all practice, practice. Eventually it is second nature. I can look at the light, the band and just know what I need, but it is hard to get great shots and difficult at best to get good shots. Learn to shoot at angles, they will be your best friend eventually.

[Greg_Nuspel]

AL I can see what you mean about flash since you are shooting pros and more in a concert setting. I just have fun shooting my friends :goodvibes at the local jazz jam, sure some of them are pros, but they are all the people I sit down and have a beer with. So it's more like shooting friends at a picnic, but we're in a bar. So I use flash lots of the time and then we sit down together and see which sax player is looking like he's having a grunty while playing :D I don't think I'll be shooting concerts or people I don't know in this type of situation. I have shot some ambient but I need fa$ter len$e$ where's the 85mm 1.4 when you need it :)

[AcadieLibre]

AL I can see what you mean about flash since you are shooting pros and more in a concert setting. I just have fun shooting my friends :goodvibes at the local jazz jam, sure some of them are pros, but they are all the people I sit down and have a beer with. So it's more like shooting friends at a picnic, but we're in a bar. So I use flash lots of the time and then we sit down together and see which sax player is looking like he's having a grunty while playing :D I don't think I'll be shooting concerts or people I don't know in this type of situation. I have shot some ambient but I need fa$ter len$e$ where's the 85mm 1.4 when you need it :)

It all depends on what outcome you want, there is no right or wrong way to shoot in small venues and with friends, but when it comes to being a concert photographer flash is just a no-no. I shoot strictly in M I want full control. As I mentioned I own a flash E580x and was on my camera once, to see if it worked, last time it sat in the hotshoe. Just how I shoot, I am sure many think I am wrong but what I want at the end a flash just is not relevant.

[jellotranz]

First and foremost, don’t feel bad if your first attempts at concept photography don’t quite turn out as well as you hoped. I have been a concert photographer since the mid 80’s and it’s not as easy as it seems, but a lot of fun. I’ve shot everything from the small clubs where the band is forced into a 4 foot square area, to large concert venues shooting people like Ozzy and Metalica, and even after more than 20 years I have shows which the pictures just don’t work well. Sure I get ones that I can turn in, but rather than running my normal 70% acceptable photo’s ratio I run 20% and most of them are unusable. It happens..

Band and concert photography is also good training because if you can shoot a band at your local club, then someone’s daughters school play, or dance recital should be no problem. Plus especially for those of you up north, it’s something you can do in the COLD SNOWY YUCKY DREARY NASTY Winter. (Can you tell I hate the snow?)

I generally try to zoom in on the band members especially in small clubs where the background just sucks. Also always go to your largest aperture. You are usually far enough away that your depth of fiend is acceptable as far as your subject goes but should do a better job of throwing the background out of focus. Pictures like your first one (My opinion here) only work if the performer is looking directly at you. If not zoom in or change the angle.

Also I can already see where this is heading.. “I am going to need faster lens’s” You can shoot concerts on a budget, as I said I did this for more than 20 years, and I have never owned a lens that cost $1000.00. Learn to shoot with the slower glass first, get really good at it, then if you ever get faster glass it will be just that much easier to shoot.

http://www.deviantdonkey.info/v1/galleries/concerts/venue/images/20090403182041_sum_41_by_jellotranz.jpg
Sum 41 (1/60 @ f1.8)

http://www.deviantdonkey.info/v1/galleries/concerts/venue/images/20090403181918_img_2350.jpg Clint Black ( 1/160 @ f5.6)

http://www.deviantdonkey.info/v1/galleries/concerts/venue/images/20090403181738_dragonfly_by_jellotranz.jpg ( 1/100 @ f5.6)

[AntZ]

Also I can already see where this is heading.. “I am going to need faster lens’s” You can shoot concerts on a budget, as I said I did this for more than 20 years, and I have never owned a lens that cost $1000.00. Learn to shoot with the slower glass first, get really good at it, then if you ever get faster glass it will be just that much easier to shoot.


Jellotranz, are these f/5.6 shots in a small dark club? I can tell from the reflections in the 3rd one it is day time. Being limited to f/5.6 makes for tough shooting in low light.:twocents:
By all means you do need to learn to make do with the gear you have, but if you are setting yourself up for a particular type of shooting you need to get the right gear. For me I bought a cheap 50mm f/1.8 and that gets me out of trouble in most situations.

[jellotranz]

For me I bought a cheap 50mm f/1.8 and that gets me out of trouble in most situations.

Actually this thread moved away from the original critique, I'll start a new concert photography thread tomorrow and write up how I shoot shows in smaller clubs.

[Marko]

Actually this thread moved away from the original critique, I'll start a new concert photography thread tomorrow and write up how I shoot shows in smaller clubs.

Cool - looking forward to it.:highfive:

[jellotranz]

Jellotranz, are these f/5.6 shots in a small dark club? I can tell from the reflections in the 3rd one it is day time. Being limited to f/5.6 makes for tough shooting in low light.:twocents:
By all means you do need to learn to make do with the gear you have, but if you are setting yourself up for a particular type of shooting you need to get the right gear. For me I bought a cheap 50mm f/1.8 and that gets me out of trouble in most situations.

The sum41 shot was shot in a large venue using a 50mm f1.8 Clint Black was shot at a large outdoor venue at dusk and Dragonfly was in full daylight once again in an outdoor venue. At the moment I am out of town on assignment and also in the middle of redoing my site so I had to grab whatever I had easily assessable to show as an example as I wasn't home to grab some from our smaller shoots.

My main point was that before you go and spend bucks on ultra fast lens’s which are great, don't get me wrong, learn to do it with what you have. It can be done, and you never know, you may find that you don’t need to spend the extra money on the ultra fast lens’s.

MERMAN seriously... Anyone who really shoots concerts for a living will tell you they are a Bitc* to shoot! They really are, the lighting can go from Bitch Black to Blinding in seconds, even in the time between when you are in AElock and when your shutter actually fires. After 20+ years of doing it, 3 out of 10 shots of mine are total junk almost every time and sometimes my ratio is more like 7 out of 10 suck. The trick is to just keep doing it and don't let it get to you. There are a lot of really cool images to be taken at concerts, it just takes some practice.

[AcadieLibre]

I am really curious to see this thread about shooting in clubs, I shoot small clubs all the time and did 5 Bands at the Hard Rock Cafe last night and even with f/2.8 was a struggle. I love my primes and bring them but nothing for concert equals a fast zoom. So I am curious about this. Shooting bands in the day is like shooting anything else in the day, easy. First time at the Hard Rock since it was called the Nickleodeon and that was more than 20 years ago, one hell hole to shoot in.

[AcadieLibre]

Merman, this is what I was referring to. this is low light, horrible low light, I used the available light which increased the shutter speed so I could catch the musician in motion. The best way, is practice, all there is too it. This was shot last night, f/2.8 Shutter Speed 125

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3415076350_81340cae7d.jpg

[Marko]

I too really want to see jello's thread. Great shot A.L.!

[merman]

I freaking love this site, thanks again to everyone!

I said before i need some fast glass, only because i am shooting with a d70, its highest iso is 1600

Perhaps i will crack out the film so i have a little more leway with iso values?
but the good news is i have a friend that might have some equipment i can borrow, so ill give that a try!

are fixed lenses good in small clubs? or are they just a pain in the ass? ive never really used one.

[jellotranz]

are fixed lenses good in small clubs? or are they just a pain in the ass? ive never really used one.

Well.... Certainly zooms are easier to work with, but.. I have to say that a 50mm f1.8 is an excellent addition, in fact I think everyone should own one, as you never know when that extra stop or two will make the difference. As with any prime lens, yep.. You have to move your self around as you can't zoom, but considering that a 50 1.8 will generally cost you under $100.00 I guess complaining about it would just make you sound silly.

Another thing.. I can't speak to some of the latest cameras, but pretty much in most cameras ISO 1600 is the absolute max you can use and get a reasonable image, and some can't get a good image at 800. So, a higher ISO, which would be nice, is going to cause you additional problems just as it would with film. (Although I perfer the look of ISO 3200 film much better than the digital noise I get from my Canon at ISO 3200!!!!)

At the higher ISO ranges I personall find that noise reduction software will clean the image up alot. Normally I like NIK software for PS filters, but in this case personally I didn't like define for noise reduction, I found noise ninja to work much better. I have used neat image, but I settled on Noise Ninja instead.

[kat]

Is it the lens that determines what the highest ISO can be before it's rediculous or the camera base? For some reason I thought it was the camera base....

Also another quick question..how do you deal with other camera flashes if they are in use?

[jellotranz]

Yes it is the Camera which determines the noise. The lens does come into play but not when it comes to noise but rather how sharp the image is. Most len's are sharpest around thier middle aperture and I have seen a ton which are really bad at the 2 ends of the spectrum. This is important as in this situation you will be shooting at the largest aperture and the lens is not sharp, then you are going to end up with a noisy unsharp picture. :)

HAHAHA, I HAVE A BIGGER FLASH THAN THEM.. lol, Thats probably not the anser you were looking for. To be honest, I have never noticed an affect, but I don't really shoot many places where flashes are even close to where I am.

[Greg_Nuspel]

I do love the flash on the point and shoot going off on the second balcony

[AcadieLibre]

Almost every venue I shoot in flashes are not allowed. And the occasional rude person will use one, blind the musicians and be asked to leave. A zoom is preferable but a prime is a good substitute if you need fast glass and don't have a lot of money. I would also venture to say using a prime will make the shoot more of a challenge to get unique shots which is not a negative but can be a positive making you be more creative with your angles and perspectives.