A gentle reminder

[tomorrowstreasures]

(Marko, please place this where it is best suited to go)

Ph.ca is a friendly place. Many of us love that about Ph.ca and it is why we call it our photography forum home.

Marko has done a wonderful job of creating thread starters for us to post our thoughts, images and ideas on. Thank you, Marko!

That said, may I kindly remind us all that one should review which thread they are in before making comments/replies. One should also think about how they are replying and what they are trying to convey.... I believe for the "critique" thread, Marko's suggestion at the thread head is "constructive" criticism.... I believe also, at the "show" photo thread, Marko suggests that it is a place to place a photo that you do not wish a critique.

Please keep these thoughts in mind when writing your replies or comments to others so that we can keep Photography.ca the warm and friendly place we know it to be.

Susan

[Fortytwo]

It's true. This is one of the most friendly forums I've come across and that's the reason I really like it. It's a rare thing on the internets today. Lots of people feel 'save' behind their PC and go and **** on everyone and everything and not giving respect to others. Marko has done such a great job to create a small and very friendly community. Even a quite international one too! :thankyou:

And I agree, there's a difference between the two sections. If a photo is in critique, it's clear the maker want us to find points on which the photo can improve. We all aim for perfection, but it's never achieved. And in the show section people just show us their work for us to admire. And we sure have some great talents here. :highfive:

But sometimes you'll still get some advice, even if you didn't ask for it. But never forget, they are just trying to help you. Don't feel bad, it's just a friendly person trying to help you at a point you might not want it. But I totally agree, we should be mindful in which section we are and that the critism we give is helpful to the photographer. It's not easy, I'll admit. Just be considerate and things will work out... :)

Just my :twocents:

[casil403]

Completely agreed Susan and well stated! :highfive:

I think that unless it is posted otherwise in the member's signature that it is okay to critiques their photos they post in any thread, that one should take into account what forum they are in before posting their thoughts.
I would also like to remind people that if they do post critique-type comments in another person's thread that they might consider being constructive, helpful, insightful and tactful with the intent on trying to help another member improve their work! :)

[Fortytwo]

Oh, I'd like to add: if you really don't like a picture for whatever reason, you can alway not post anything and just go on to other pictures you do like. We all have our own taste, but the last thing we want is to bring people down... :)

[Bambi]

I have to say that I feel 'safe' even in the critique's section. :) That's why I posted for help in my recent HDR attempt. I was tempted to throw it away and try again but I needed directions and I got them :highfive: and I don't feel like a total idiot (whether I am or not is a different story)

[JAS_Photo]

Respectful, I think is the key word here. Nobody likes to have their feelings hurt. This forum is a friendly place and a great place to learn. I like to hang out here, not just for the photography but also the camraderie.

When I find someone's comments to be very blunt (or rude) I take into account whether they are a native English speaker. On the internet you are going to get members from all over the world and bluntness or percieved rudeness may not be intentional on someone's part. Especially when they are new to a forum, you pretty much have to give them the benefit of the doubt and perhaps private message them that their comments are out of line. Giving them a public dress down and telling them they are not welcome will only succeed in producing more drama and a flame wars. Plus it gives the attitude of clique-y-ness.

I feel this is a safe, friendly learning environment, so much so that I have recommended it to my niece (amongst others) who is a young teen and interested in photography. Not sure if she is here yet-but anyone who is here should be treated respectfully, and not feel afraid to show their work or express their ideas, tactfully and respectfully. It is my feeling that if someone is new and not familiar with the workings of the forum they should be accorded the same respect, that is expected from them.

Mad Aussie not withstanding. <<<< that's a joke>>>:D

Cheers.

[Bambi]

well said Raiven!:highfive:

[casil403]

I think you said that very well also Raiven. :)
I think some of those comments were addressed to my response to another's post earlier today. I apologize if my comments were out of line and if I offended any members. :o That was not my intent.

The last thing I would like to do is alienate people and make this a clique but however, I would also hate to see people have a fear of posting their work because of the comments that might get made. Some people have thinner skin than others do. I think the show your photo section is just that...show your work. That doesn't mean we have to be all warm and fuzzy, but I believe that it means we should be a little gentler and as you said respectful. I believe also that in that particular section that if we don't have anything nice to say or a nice way to say it....perhaps it''s best to not say anything at all. At least that's how I understand it and how it works for me. :)

I also think that a member is not comfortable posting in the Critique section..he/she should be able to feel comfortable posting in "show your photo" section without fear of having to bear the same kind of blunt honesty that they would in the crit' thread..I know I am not a just not that comfortable with some of the things that are said in Critique and yes I do take it personally sometimes (especially when I like the photo...and I am the same if someone dislikes my food as well ;)....that's how I've always been and I have to remind myself many times that it is about the work (and the spirit of improving it) and not about me as a person. However at the same time, seeing the comments both positive and negative is also how I have grown in my hobby.

I have added to my signature that it is okay to comment on my photos I post but that doesn't mean that it's okay to be harsh. I also believe there are ways of saying things respectfully and constructively as we all do for the most part no matter what country or culture we belong to. I try to take into account when post a thought that how would I feel if that was said to me and how I would make the photo better IMHO...I am hardly a professional but I have ideas and sharing them is also how I learn also.:)
I hope that made sense as I kind of got rambling there and again I apologize for my outburst earlier today....especially if it offended anybody. :o

[Fortytwo]

When I find someone's comments to be very blunt (or rude) I take into account whether they are a native English speaker. On the internet you are going to get members from all over the world and bluntness or percieved rudeness may not be intentional on someone's part.

Nah, I'm just blunt and rude. But I try to restrain myself here because you're all nice people here... :cool:

[AcadieLibre]

Nah, I'm just blunt and rude. But I try to restrain myself here because you're all nice people here... :cool:

I am an egotistical, self centered ass who is crass and SOB, but like you said they are nice people. :evil2:

[Bambi]

Nah, I'm just blunt and rude. But I try to restrain myself here because you're all nice people here... :cool:


I am an egotistical, self centered ass who is crass and SOB, but like you said they are nice people.

I am one of the nicest people you'd ever want to have a beer with:rolleyes::D

[Fortytwo]

Well, if you ever get to Amsterdam, I'll buy you a beer for sure. ;) You'll just have to pay for your own trip... :p

[Bambi]

Well, if you ever get to Amsterdam, I'll buy you a beer for sure. ;) You'll just have to pay for your own trip... :p

42 you are on!!!

[tomorrowstreasures]

There is no excuse for rudeness or mean spirited comments. That is not how someone grows. All that accomplishes is more negativity. Constructive criticism, constructs - builds... not knocks down.... If people are happy having someone tell each other that their image is -- hated/ugly/insert negative remark here -- in the manner that was done on this forum, then this is not the forum for me - and I am sure many others.

Because someone steps up to the plate and confronts someone on their behavior does not create a clique... the person in question was emphasizing appropriate behavior. I thank her for that.

[Mad Aussie]

Something else to think about when you feel you have received an abrasive or blunt critique/comment is that you may be looking at a comment from someone who does not have English as their primary language. Imagine trying to be all the things we expect in the way of respect and politeness when you struggle to form sentences in another language.
I always look at the person's location if they have provided it to guide me in this case.

Another reason someone might be a bit blunt is because they've rushed in and tried to participate, but were short on time. This can result in a comment not as well constructed as it might be.

Even people with English as a primary language can be taken the wrong way also. The 'tone' of a sentence in English is very important to it's meaning quite often and this often misinterpreted in a forum.

So always take a bit of time if you feel a little stabbed by someone's comment to consider these points.



Something I tend to do is try to tailor my critiques to the person a little. For instance, if someone is new here and I'm uncertain of their level of expertise then I tend to tread more lightly than I would if someone like Marko posts a shot up. No point picking a newbies shot apart, better to start with helping them get some basics right first. Marko on the other hand expects us to pick on the finer points he's missed.

Recently I've been more harsh in my critiques of both Casil and Bambi because I know they both want to try to step their photography up a level so now I'm more picky with them. If they let something basic like not leveling their water horizons I'm onto them and will not nominate their photo for the members Choice even it's perfect in every other way. It's my way of pushing them to look for and correct the small things. My point is my critiques tend to be different for different people.



Lastly, critiques are not always from an experienced photographer, or even if they are, sometimes they are not a definitive lesson. Sometimes (actually most often due to the subjective nature of photography) they are simply an opinion and not much more. Every photo put on here will be liked by some people and not by others.

[Iguanasan]

...
Something I tend to do is try to tailor my critiques to the person a little. For instance, if someone is new here and I'm uncertain of their level of expertise then I tend to tread more lightly than I would if someone like Marko posts a shot up. No point picking a newbies shot apart, better to start with helping them get some basics right first. Marko on the other hand expects us to pick on the finer points he's missed.
...


I do this as well. I think it just makes sense. A new member to the site may be very sensitive to a comment as it may be their first time putting themselves out there. It behooves all of us to take other people's feelings into consideration when making a comment.

[Bambi]

Recently I've been more harsh in my critiques of both Casil and Bambi because I know they both want to try to step their photography up a level so now I'm more picky with them. If they let something basic like not leveling their water horizons I'm onto them and will not nominate their photo for the members Choice even it's perfect in every other way. It's my way of pushing them to look for and correct the small things. My point is my critiques tend to be different for different people.


AHA!! I knew it!!! :lightbulb And I was flattered that you (and others) are being more picky with me. Does this make me a masochist? :eek::D Who cares as long as it makes me a better photographer!!!

and I agree with everything else you said as well.

[Mad Aussie]

and I agree with everything else you said as well.
Of course ... everything I say is very, very important you know??!! ;)

[Bambi]

Of course ... everything I say is very, very important you know??!! ;)

yes dear. :rolleyes:

[Marko]

Thanks for starting this thread TT.

I LOVE the pulse and friendliness of our forum :highfive:

But lots of points in this thread so far....

First off - any member can PM me if they want me to look at a thread objectively for rudeness or any other reason. Because I want to keep this forum friendly, and I can no longer look at every post, I will be depending more and more on members to alert me to such posts as opposed to letting them slide....Obviously different people have different writing styles and different people are more sensitive than others....but I think we all know when something is "Too" rude. Many of you have seen it on other photo forums...and i do NOT want it creeping up here if at all possible...Even as membership grows...if we are ALL friendly, we will all set the pulse.

MA makes an excellent point about language and lack of time when we are writing fast.....just something to be aware of.

One thing that MIGHT be sticky is the difference between the show forums and critique. Some people (myself DEFINITELY included) occasionally add small notes of improvement in the show threads. It's kind of a grey area. Do we need to make it b/w?

Thanks for listening and if anyone prefers to PM instead of posting here please feel free.

many thx - Marko

[Mad Aussie]

Usually I definitely avoid any type of critique unless the photo is actually in the critique section. I just think that if the person wanted critique/advice etc they would have put the photo in critiques and not Show Your Photo.

I have recently kinda of gone against that a couple of time with Casil and Bambi but only on points we'd discussed in critiques beforehand. I took it as an opportunity to just reinforce/point out those things again.

I'm certainly happy for them or anyone else to ask me not too if their photo is in the Show your Photo section, although as stated, it would be rare for me to give them the opportunity anyhow.

Occasionally many of us forget to check which forum we are looking at and give critique when a photo is in the Show your Photo section ... and vice versa really at times. A gentle comment to highlight where the photo is is usually enough I think.

Exceptions to all that is someone like me who has in their signature that critique is fine anytime (well I used to) :) I'm often interested in what people find interesting/well done, or not, in my photos.

[tirediron]

While I agree with pretty much everything already posted in this thread, there is one point that I would like to bring forward, and that relates specifically to the critique section.

I think the fact that this is such a friendly, relatively small forum has become detrimental to our critiquing of each others work. More and more we're posting comments such as, "Nice work" and "I like it" in the critique threads. That's fine, BUT, it offers nothing to the poster except perhaps a slight ego boost. What we need to make sure we include is [I]why we like it. Just as importantly, if we don't like it, we need to say so, and again, why we don't like it.

There's no harm in saying, "Sorry, not my taste", and that shouldn't offend anyone. Of course if you can't add anything to that, it's probably not worth posting, but offering comprehensive critique is important. Certainly when I post images, I want people to tell me where they see areas for improvement or things that could be done to make a better image. Providing critique is an excellent learning experience for the person who gives it as well.

Anyway, the Coles Notes version of all the drivel is that IMO, we need to work hard to make sure that we don't become complacent with our critique.

[Bambi]

very good points TI. I am guilty of that, mostly because I have gotten in the habit of just clicking on 'new posts' and not checking which forum the photo is in!!