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Bambi
03-10-2010, 01:27 PM
I found this on another website:
The Associated Press: Vick 'humbled' by Ed Block Courage Award (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ig03nlNLh3F482GTTEA2Nx6uf05AD9EBEIIG0)

I suppose I shouldn't be appalled by the lengths marketing teams will go to put a 'spin' on a person but this defies belief. In what way has this man shown bravery????. He did his time in jail (for a crime that he was guilty of) and then returned to his lucrative career. Not once has he actually owned up to the incredibly cruel acts he perpetrated but only says that he showed bad judgment. It simply is beyond belief that this man has ever demonstrated courage or overcome adversity.
But because he's good at sports it's all forgiven. I think I'm going to be sick. :yuck:

Michaelaw
03-10-2010, 01:52 PM
Yes, another sad justification based on our tribal instinct:sad:

Marko
03-10-2010, 01:54 PM
Oh my pet peeps are gonna go batty over this one.

he should run for office. :wall-an:

Wicked Dark
03-10-2010, 01:55 PM
I can't even go read it. Just your summation makes me sick enough...and I just had a great morning outdoors, so I refuse to be bummed. Uploading 160-something photos to Lightroom!

Mad Aussie
03-10-2010, 10:34 PM
It's a proud moment to be American!

Michaelaw
03-10-2010, 10:42 PM
One of many MA...One of many:sad:

jjeling
03-10-2010, 11:34 PM
Oh boy. Im proud to be an American. I love this country dearly, and I agree that there are some issues that it has to deal with. It does allow for some things like this to happen. But it also allows for some extraordinary things to happen on the opposite scale.

It is disheartening to know the general feeling the rest of the world has about us. Unfortunately, stereotypes always have some merit to them, otherwise they would not have come to be. However, it is never good to generalize like this because it does not apply to every person, situation, etc. Maybe a small percentage of the time, but being a citizen here, its a bitter feeling. There are some awesome people here. Our government is a something of a joke, doesnt matter what side you are on, liberal or conservative.

Personally, I know some of the wealthiest and most powerful people you could ever know, and also some of the poorest and most decietful people at the other end of the spectrum. It is something I am accepting of and treat everyone equally whether you are rich and famous, or poor and an addict.

Every governement, city, and country has its own problems semantically, and individually. I pray everyday that the world over understands these acts do not represent every citizen for that country. I know the people of the Middle East are not "terrorists" and should not be treated as such. Everyone gets the same tone, and same respect. I will not kiss your ass because you have money or power, and I will not help you because you made poor decisions and arent willing to change them yourself.

Sorry, but I these generalizations hard to stomach. I dont think all Canadians are angry Frenchman and all Australians throw boomarangs and chase crocodiles. Please dont assume the same stereotypes about us Americans.

MA, no ill attent intended here. Just wanted to explain we are not all Michael Vicks, Mike Tysons, Lil' Waynes, or George Bushes.

Michaelaw
03-10-2010, 11:59 PM
I like Americans JJ, a good country full of hard working, spirited, innovative people from all corners of the world. It's not the people I have issue with. Nor the people of the UK where I was born. I do however have deep opinions on both administrations of these countries. I wouldn't trust your government as far as I could throw it. It's not even a government anymore IMHO, it's owned by big business and the military industrial complex. America, if it began again under the present conditions could never hope to be as great as it was in its prime, the spirit which allowed such greatness is regulated to death and what isn't regulated is stifled with fear. It's a shame in my view and I hope one day the people of America can get their homeland back because they built it, were the backbone of the entire thing but it was hijacked by greed:wall-an:

jjeling
03-11-2010, 12:25 AM
I agree with you MAW. The beauty of this country, our ability to speak freely and not worry about it(maybe....). Either way, like I said, there are some MAJOR problems that need to be dealt with, regardles of party, liberal or conservative. They are both wasting OUR time. Unfortunately, we have a large influence on the rest of the world, and that translates into wasting the worlds time as well. It does not have the influence it used to have, but there are reasons for that. I do believe that one day our country will figure itself out. We call this a democratic country but its a far cry from that. We were intended to be a democratic country, but that turned into capitalism with the advent of the global economy. Unfortunately, capitalism is quite the opposite of a democracy.

I like to think that our country is strong enough to pull itself out of this mess. It is a hope that I refuse to give up on. We are still relatively young at only 250 yrs. Not all of the wrinkles have been ironed out yet, but in time(maybe another 250 yrs) I think it might turn out for the better. The concept is great, but I think its going to take a while longer to happen.

Once enough of us 'commons' have been pushed down long enough, we will take the government back. I do not see it happening any other way honestly, it can't last forever. As the rich keep getting richer, it will force the people into another coup or revolution of sorts. If not, maybe you might refer to the story of Easter Island or the Mayans.

Mad Aussie
03-11-2010, 12:30 AM
Don't worry JJ ... there is many a moment when I'm not proud to be Australian ... or even human.

jjeling
03-11-2010, 01:23 AM
No worries here MA. I am outnumbered here on this site being one of the only couple of Americans on here. Just dont want you all to think that we are that way. I know you guys dont, but just wanted to state that Im always proud to be an American, Im just not always proud of Americans.

Mad Aussie
03-11-2010, 01:26 AM
Trust me JJ ... my sentence wasn't a steroetype ... if the news had been in Lithuania ... I would have said "It's a proud moment to be in Lithuania"

Fortytwo
03-11-2010, 02:09 AM
Now, it might just be me. But if someone has done the time for whatever he's done, that it for me. I'm always very hesitant to keep judging and convicting someone for a crime they've already done the time for. I don't know all the details and story the judge does, who am I to second guess him, or her, and say we should punish this guy some more for what he's done. If the judge thinks he's payed for his crimes, I'll take that. It's done. Not every crime should haunt a man for the rest of his life. Now, what he's done is pretty cruel and wrong in every way. But not so much he doesn't deserve a second chance. Or at least it's not up to me to deside that anyways. But I've always been a guy of second chances. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Not everyone should immediately ruin your life...

I'm not a hippy. Punishment should be severe and harsh. But when it's done, it's done. We've got judges and juries to punish people, society shouldn't interfere with it's own judgement based on gut feeling. Revenge has no place in the justice system...

As for goverments, here it's just as bad. The US is not unique. Politicians are full of sh*t everywhere... ;)

Mad Aussie
03-11-2010, 02:36 AM
In this case 42 ... the crime was in the recent past ... and now he's getting an award. I think that's where the foul taste in the mouth lies.

Doing time might be penalty served but it doesn't mean the person is now a better man. In this case I highly doubt the guy has changed much at all.

Also, he didn't make a mistake ... he made a choice ... over and over again ... and got caught.

Some crimes deserve to haunt a person for life. Especially when they involve hurting another being who has their scars or death for life.

Fortytwo
03-11-2010, 02:46 AM
I'm not saying I don't understand your feelings. Or that this guy deserves a medal or anything. I'm sure as hell not defending what he's done.

But I just don't believe in society casting judgement on people. We've tried that in the middle ages, didn't work very well. I don't know if the guy has changed or learned anything. I've never met him. I shouldn't deside if he needs more punishment or not. That's my point... ;)

Mad Aussie
03-11-2010, 04:48 AM
I don't think the point of the topic is to give him more punishment ... just whether he's worthy of an award of this sort.

My personal opinion is no bloody way. Until he proves himself as a valued and productive member of society he deserves no award.

Every single fireman, paramedic, social worker ( I could go on and on) deserves awards well before this degenerate butthole.

Fortytwo
03-11-2010, 07:25 AM
If you still take his crime into consideration, you are still punishing him in one way or another. Now, he still might not deserve the award, but this should be because he's done just nothing or not enough to deserve it. Not because this crime is still being reflected onto him as a person.

Now, I fully realise this is much easier for me, since around here nobody has ever heard of this guy. But I get sick and tired of people shouting "death penalty" at every newsitem about a burglar getting caught. It's so easy to pass judgment on people you don't know. We're all hearing the story trough some from of journalism media. We don't get the details, motivations and background stories. We don't realise how important these can be. All we do is hear about something and make a black and white judgement about what we think. It's too easy, we disregard so much. We don't see that.

Again, I'm not saying this guy deserves the award or not. His teammate, the people close to him did. There must be something they know that we don't...

casil403
03-11-2010, 07:49 AM
"Off the field, Vick has worked with The Humane Society of the United States, speaking at churches, schools and community groups about the poor judgment he showed in getting involved in dogfighting.
"Michael Vick approached us and said he wanted to be part of the solution instead of the problem," Michael Markarian, executive vice president and CEO of the Humane Society, said before the event. "We asked him if he do volunteer work, go to communities all over the country and talk to at-risk youth and try to steer them away from dogfighting."
Markarian said Vick has told his story in "about a dozen" cities.
"The Humane Society of the United States was the toughest critic of Michael Vick when these allegations first came to light," Markarian said. "But we want to find creative solutions to try to reach kids, particularly young men, who get pitbulls for the wrong reason. They are really moved after they hear Michael Vick's story, and it turns them away from dogfighting."

I think he is trying to make amends for his errors and mistakes. I dunno if he deserves an award quite yet,(seems a bit early for me), but I believe after reading this he is trying. I was astonished and outraged too when I read the title and then I read the story. Forgiving is not forgetting in anyway, but it seems if the Humane Society can do it, then maybe so can I. Just my :twocents: and I guess I am with 42 on this one.

Bambi
03-11-2010, 08:39 AM
But not once has he admitted to the torture of the animals he had in his compound (and they number in the 100's from family pets he trew to the dogs to get them going to the dogs who lost that he killed in incredibly awful ways). All he's ever said is that he was sorry that he exercised bad judgment in getting involved in dog fighting. I believe that he's using the SPCA to increase his public image and they are using him to combat dog fighting. Whatever.


I agree, he's done his time. And it's done. He's back playing football and making his fortune. This is not worthy of a bravery award. He went to jail because he was guilty. Lots of people do that every day. Lots do their time and get out and don't get an award. Frankly I would be fine if someone went to jail (for any crime), did their time and rebuilt their life from nothing. That takes bravery and commitment. Michael Vick demonstrated none of this. The award is simply public manipulation. And it's not so much a government problem as a corporate problem. And society's view. I find it ironic that Michael Vick gets a bravery award while Tiger Woods is still being vilified and all he did was screw around. Something I care nothing about.

I can accept the Michael has done his time. And it's done. It would take a lot to convince me that he's changed his ways and that's because he was cruel to a helpless creature. I feel the same way about any one who's crime is perpetrated on the defenseless, whether they are animal or human. I believe that it speaks to who you are as a human being. It will take a lot more then a few public speaking events in schools to convince me he's changed. But that's my opinion and I'm okay if others don't agree.

And it's all irrelevant. The main point is that there is no evidence that he's done anything to justify this award. Other then spin. And that's sickening to me and demeaning to the award. If I had such an award and heard that he had received it, it would greatly diminish it's value for me.

:twocents:

casil403
03-11-2010, 08:49 AM
I find it ironic that Michael Vick gets a bravery award while Tiger Woods is still being vilified and all he did was screw around.

I'm sure Tiger will get some kind of award in a few years too. :)

casil403
03-11-2010, 09:00 AM
So is it the same as drunk drivers who speak at MAD meetings and try to dissuade people for drinking and driving? Should they not be allowed to do that either?:shrug:
There is absolutely no excuse for drunk driving...however people do it....they kill and maim and they go to jail...personally I don't think that is enough IMO. But some try to make amends by becoming part of MAD and speaking out against DD to keep people from making mistakes they did....and some go back and do it again and again. I respect people who try and make up for their crimes in a positive manner after they have committed them..spin or not. Vick didn't have to do anything..he did his time and hey one hand does wash the other so both he and the AHS are benefiting...but in the end, if it keeps one less person from owning a pitbull for the wrong reasons or thinking twice going to a dogfight and forking over the money (which really hits the lowlifes running dogfighting where they should be hit...in the pocketbook) then that's enough for me. :)

AcadieLibre
03-11-2010, 09:47 AM
Society is to deal in Justice not Revenge, I have seen and been horrified by so much more than what Vick's did, Drunk Driver's, etc. As a society we should rehabilitate as we justly punish those guilty but when they serve their time they have paid their debt to society. Read Les MisÚrables by Victor Hugo. When do we become a society of lifetime punishment for every crime that upsets people, people do horrible, horrible things and need to be punished but societies job is to serve justice not seek revenge.

Yes they try to make these jocks out to be what they are not, they are people and and those who put them on pedestals are to blame and so is our useless, ignorant, line towing, ass kissing, Media and the ignorant mass of sheep we call people and the inept politicians people keep electing to office. Once we seek revenge instead of justice we are not better than Fascist, Totalitarian Societies. Vick's did his time, he has every right now to seek whatever life he can, I think he's a MOFO, but he served his time and if the peons want to make him a hero, it just shows the intelligence of society.

PS: This is my opinion, this is the only statement I will making on this, on Politics and Justice no quarter is asked or given.

casil403
03-11-2010, 09:47 AM
In fact Michael Vick has apologized.....
Michael Vick Blogs Apology For Dog Fighting | Michael Vick : Just Jared (http://justjared.buzznet.com/2009/08/17/michael-vick-blogs-apology-for-dog-fighting/)

Marko
03-11-2010, 10:00 AM
The award is the only point here imo, and it's disgusting. He did his time, it's true but AWARD worthy?....:wall-an:

Only because this former, and now completely rehabilitated, animal torturer is a millionaire quarterback, does he get an award. It's a disgusting joke and I am in awe that so many people swallow this up without vomiting.

I love individual Americans, but how so much of "America" is about money really gets me down sometimes. I mean if I was the one torturing animals for sport, and I went to jail...and I did my time...should I get an award because I've seen the error of my ways and now I have stopped torturing animals? Who would buy tickets for MY speaking tour?

I would never get that award because I'm not a famous American quarterback that can generate millions of dollars for a sports-team. This award and his going to schools is pure marketing imo.

Btw - full disclosure - I'm a big time animal lover and it's hard for me to forgive animal torturers....let alone give them awards.

Bambi
03-11-2010, 11:28 AM
Thank you Marko for understanding my point.

He's done his time. It's done. Have I forgiven him? NO. Does he care? Nope. But it's irrelevant. He can go live his life and I will live mine. I don't want him to die, go back to jail or have rocks thrown at him. But I don't see how he merits an award. for going to jail. for something he admits he did. :shrug: but only after the others who were charged pled guilty and implicated him.

My problem is that he is getting an award for it. He has not done enough to merit it. If he continues to advocate on behalf of dogs 2 years from now then I will start to be impressed. The cynical part of me is thinking that it will all stop before then. when it's no longer needed.

I read what he wrote (thanks Casil) but don't accept it at this point as from himself rather then professionally written. I love how he puts in his sad story of his childhood was short on details so not sure how genuine it is at this point.

I have yet to see what he's done to merit a Bravery award. period.

Marko
03-11-2010, 12:16 PM
we're so on the same page bambi...and his apology looks carefully crafted by a speechwriter to me.

IF he continues this speaking tour for a coupla years...I likely WILL change my mind....because then he really is making a difference...but not now.
Too soon, and all of this is wrapped up in money and PR.

casil403
03-11-2010, 12:59 PM
So many opinions...so little time. :)
Michael Vick’s Apology - Opinionator Blog - NYTimes.com (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/michael-vicks-apology/)