What type of image for B&W

[ericmark]

http://www.photography.ca/Forums/members/ericmark/albums/odd-pictures/343-no-7-tom-rolt-talyllyn-railway-brynglas-crossing-green-blue-hill.jpg
Since the black and white section has been started I thought I would have a go. Selecting a subject with would have been traditionally black and white I thought give it a go.
1) I found it hard to set levels in Black and White and I ended up setting in colour first.
2) Where does one do the converting. I selected the RAW plug-in with Photoshop CS4 as seemed the sooner converted the better but I also used the selective tool to lighten the pistons and valve gear area and I am sure with some more skill the selecting of colour sliders in the conversion could do better job.
3) So set levels finally in Photoshop and Un-sharp mask but then what do I save it as? Jpeg is a colour format so although saved here as Jpeg I am sure that is wrong.

I will guess I should use GIF but not at all sure. My attempt seemed to lock up Photoshop and as I write this the file is still trying to be processed so what file format should be used for Black and White?

[JAS_Photo]

Seems like you are making this more difficult then it should be ericmark. Here is a tutorial for photoshop.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/techniques/color-black-white.htm

Personally I use LightRoom to do my B&W conversions. I have downloaded a few presets and start from there but LR gives you lots of options including duotoning.

[ericmark]

Thank you for link. The guidance as to which colours to increase or decrease is very good. However seems a little dated as with my Photoshop CS4 I get the following screen to convert with.
http://www.photography.ca/Forums/members/ericmark/albums/odd-pictures/344-monochrome-example-turning-picture-colour-photoshop-cs4.jpg
Moving the 8 sliders does produce a huge difference in the final outcome. Since there are so many greens in picture a arrow shape of the sliders with green at head of arrow seems to produce the best effect but then the big question arises.
What to save as?
With this image since it includes the colour sliders of course Jpeg is reasonable. However for the actual image seems very little point using a format designed for colour. If only monochrome information is saved the file must be a lot smaller and if used with a web page keeping the file size down must mean it will load faster. We have the following options.
http://www.photography.ca/Forums/members/ericmark/albums/odd-pictures/345-file-types.jpg
Some of these are not really any good as they are specially to a certain program but Tiff, Gif, Jpeg, Bmp, are all relatively universally used however all seem to need more room to store than Jpeg in spite of the colour being removed. So theory and practice seem to be different and Jpeg does seem best format. And comparing colour to monochrome 11M to 7M so file does seem to be smaller as a result of removing colour. Jpeg also to me is good because of the meta data it contains and being able to refer to what the camera settings were at time of taking must be an advantage.

[JAS_Photo]

That photo you are using in your example is a real nice capture, ericmark.

[ericmark]

Thank you it did take some getting to. The old slate quarry railway runs on opposite side of glacier valley to main road and it seemed every point of access had either bridges or trees with stopped one getting a good view. I tried a few narrow lanes to get closer, and was getting in good practice at reversing. Passing places could be 1/2 mile apart.

When I found that station and signal box I was surprised. Even room to park and turn around.

However lovely sunny day. Not so good for getting the valve gear as it tends to be in heavy shadow. I did take in RAW so good base image but not really a subject where one can use HDR.

Using too much adjustment brush or fill light tends to give a whitish haze so with so much on here about black and white I considered the idea of using black and white and the post exposure filters which are available when converting from RAW.

Not sure if I have got the right balance of colour filters but did seem to help.
Hind sight maybe I should have added a little hue and saturation and given it a sepia effect.

I have noted if no hue and saturation are added then the Black and White option in Photoshop main is greyed out. However if hue and saturation is added then you can also use the black and white option in photoshop.
This seems to answer my question as if one does add hue and saturation then really it is no longer Black and White it is Monochrome but not Black and White so you do need to save as a colour image so Jpeg does seem to be best option.

Although it does seem a lot of messing about I have to admit it is now far easier than last time I tried it in my dads loft, trying to make out the image and using a lot of guess work. I remember doing a lovely enlargement of the wing tip of Concorde, but really I wanted nose, and with such a faint image projected on the floor I had selected wrong area.
I seem to have phases last one was HDR now seems I am on Black and White.

Seems odd but I voted against this section.

[Mad Aussie]

I use PS CS4 for my conversions ... but not the RAW editor. I use the Black & White tool under image/adjustments/

[kat]

I do the same as MA. Within the image/adjustments/bw. There are many ways to get BW images though and to alter them. I learned from my Dummies for Photoshop (yes, I had to take it out of the library several times). Lots of useful info in it!

[ericmark]

Thank you I have wondered which is best place. RAW editor or main program. The RAW editor has more sliders and controls to that in main program. However main program allows selective returning of colour.

Even in main program the Black and White allows more control to desaturate however we were taught to use desaturate in college.

With whole of RAW editor I am very aware all too easy to do same function twice and with that in mind the Un-sharp mask in the editor is turned off.

With the Railway engine the main problem is the heighten the shadows to show the connecting rods and valve gear and the whole idea of going Black and White is to use the sliders to further help the process. Since the effect of the selective brush is altered by the Black and White process I wanted to be able to use the brush after the image it turned to Black and White hence using the RAW editor.

The problem with RAW editor is there does not seem to be any undo tool so any mistakes often need one to start again from scratch. At least with RAW original image is not altered so one can return to start.

Theory seemed great having watched Lynda.com instruction set but in practice selecting correct slider is not so easy and I realise I need more practice. However as to where to change to Black and White jury is still out as far as I am concerned. Do I want the extra control? I ask myself and for run of mill images likely the answer is no. However since some specials do gain using RAW editor should I use both or learn just one system and if using just one which one?

This does in a way bring me back to original question format. I note if I add some colour in RAW then it becomes a colour Jpeg but if I leave Hue and Saturation untouched then the Jpeg is true Black and White and later in main Photoshop many of the colour sliders are greyed out. Also I note the file size is reduced if Hue and Saturation are left untouched. So for use with web pages using RAW conversion may help but as yet many more experiments need doing I think to fully understand the process.

Big point is of course when I look at your images both "Mad Aussie's" and "kat's" are better than mine. So maybe I should just follow your example and maybe mine will then better emulate your high standards. Likely in the end likely I will do just that. But first I think a little playing will not go amiss?

[Mad Aussie]

There are always many ways to skin a cat. FInd the one that suits and appeals most to you. :)

[Marko]

I agree with MA on this last point. PS4 is not better than camera RAW for conversion. It's just different. I've used both to convert and watched tutorials by the pros on using both methods.